Papumba - Making a trustworthy and user-friendly language learning app with Gonzalo Rodriguez

[00:00:01.430] - Olivier Destrebecq
Welcome to the Subscription League, a podcast by Purchasely. Listen to what's working in subscription apps. In each episode, we invite leaders of the app industry who are mastering the subscription model for mobile apps. To learn more about subscriptions, head to subscriptionleague.com. Let's get started.

[00:00:20.890] - Olivier Destrebecq
Welcome to the show, everybody. Today, I'm joined by Jeff, co-founder of Purchasely, and Gonzalo Rodriguez, CEO and co-founder of Papumba, joining us straight from Argentina today. Welcome to the show, Gonzalo.

[00:00:34.640] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
Hi, Oliver. Hi, Jeff. Thanks for having me here. It's a great honour.

[00:00:38.780] - Jeff Grang
Hi, Gonzalo. Pleasure.

[00:00:39.830] - Olivier Destrebecq
You're more than welcome. To set a little bit of background, can you tell us what is Papumba and how you got the idea for that project?

[00:00:47.960] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
Yeah. Papumba is a parenting app that helps you throughout the journey of raising a child. We are an all-in-one platform that includes educational games, audiobooks, videos, and yoga classes.

[00:01:01.520] - Olivier Destrebecq
Awesome. I'm assuming you have kids.

[00:01:04.250] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
Yeah. We are three founders. A few years ago, we realized that technology, instead of being an ally for families, was actually a headache. We try to, in a way, solve this. Our vision is that technology should be parent allies and actually make parenting, which is quite challenging in the very first years, to make it more enjoyable and also to have a resource to help you. Technology, we think, is a great resource.

[00:01:39.550] - Olivier Destrebecq
I've got two kids myself, and so I totally see your point of technology should be an ally, but then at the same time, I'm like, "Well, the iPad, yes, you can use it, but not that much," So it's tricky.

[00:01:52.100] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
It's tricky. Kids nowadays, kids that are maybe three year old, four year old, they spend quarter of their day, they are awake watching screens. It's a lot of time that they have energy to learn. Instead of watching videos, if they can learn while doing something, it's great.

[00:02:11.190] - Olivier Destrebecq
Yeah, definitely. You've been doing a great job at it because Apple just put Papumba as one of the top 10 app for kids, and you received an EdTech Awards in 2023 for best early childhood app. Being featured and receiving awards is always nice, obviously. But can you tell us a bit about what that actually meant for you guys and how much work went into getting those awards?

[00:02:37.010] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
Yeah, absolutely. Obviously, rewards are important, but it's not what we pursue. But at the same time, in our space, parents are very careful on the choices they make regarding technology. Being featured by Apple or even these EdTech Awards, to us, it's very important because we need to be very good at everything that comes before using the app because in a way, once the app is downloaded and well, a parent subscribe, then the user is the kid. We need to build trust. Those awards are something great to inspire trust.

[00:03:13.450] - Jeff Grang
Can you share with us some figures of where you are right now in your deployment and who you address and your top markets?

[00:03:19.810] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
Yeah, absolutely. Right now, Papumba is available in 15 languages. When I say available in 15 languages, it's not only the text, but we have voiceovers in every of those native languages. Even though we have those languages, our main markets are the US, Brazil, Mexico, and China. 60% of the revenue comes from those countries. We are in the dozens of thousands of subscribers. Right now, we're in a round of funding round to actually scale and reach the couple of hundred thousands. I don't know if that's in a nutshell, but I know Apple is really important to us. We have a very big amount of subscribers coming from that platform.

[00:04:01.690] - Olivier Destrebecq
Nice. From talking with Jeff, actually, in the past, I know that getting featured and getting awards is actually work. It doesn't just happen by you doing a great app and sitting in the corner. I'm curious about how you guys approach that.

[00:04:17.570] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
Yeah, absolutely. I would say first, when we started designing Papumba, we started to talk with Apple and Google and share the project with them, the idea how we were going to monetize. That was, I think, something important because from the very beginning, they were aware and they have been guiding us, giving advice. Every time we have something big to share, we send the news to them, to their editorial teams. That's something that is like a muscle that we have been developing, sharing what we do, and at the same time asking for support because we are partners, we share revenue, and it's been great.

[00:04:57.930] - Jeff Grang
We've been witnessing the same story with one of our customer called Holy Owley. It's a English learning language app for kids, small kids. They have a very close relationship with Apple too. They went to a lot of workshops and also featured all the time. I believe when you are addressing the kids app category, and maybe we'll discuss that later on in the interview, it's a very specific category, having Apple close to you is really something that can make a whole difference besides the fact that you are featured and you get download for free, basically. But also in how you can change the conception of your app and also how you can maybe target some specific features or avoid some specific traps. Do you have any experience to share on this?

[00:05:41.450] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
I completely agree with what you said. I would also say that when you are doing advertising, the fact that someone has already seen your app in the App Store feature improves conversion rates and make it easier or cheaper to reduce the cost of acquisition. I would say it's not only about getting feature and downloads, but it's more about building the brand. I guess nothing is better than seeing in a very short list of apps that you are there and for parents especially.

[00:06:09.740] - Jeff Grang
Yeah. So next goal is to get the Editor's Choice Award on the App Store, right?

[00:06:15.010] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
Yeah. Last year, it was about the top 10 apps for kids and hopefully one day we can be there.

[00:06:21.970] - Olivier Destrebecq
We'll invite you back on the podcast when that happens.

[00:06:25.030] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
Sure.

[00:06:25.800] - Olivier Destrebecq
Another challenge that you have, most app, they sell, I want to say, directly to the customers, where you have a customer, I guess, in the parent and the user in the kid. What challenge does that bring?

[00:06:41.440] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
I think the most important challenge is that we are targeting two users, obviously, and they have different needs. Kids, they want to have fun, and parents subscribe to Papumba because they want their kid to learn. We need to find a balance between parents' needs and kids' needs. Basically, the educational content needs to be fun and the kid needs to want to play. That's the challenging part, I would say.

[00:07:07.220] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
Then I would say, regarding communication with the decision maker, because when your user is a kid, it's not easy to create friction with offers or with communications. Sometimes we have great updates to share and we cannot interrupt the kid while playing. We need to find when is the right moment to contact the parent at which time, which is the hour. In that, I would say, we need to become really good.

[00:07:34.350] - Olivier Destrebecq
From what I understand, you have some activities for kids that might be pre-reading. How do you solve communicating with them when they can't read?

[00:07:46.590] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
Yeah. What we developed first is a UI that basically you can understand without text. We have voiceovers that guide you like if you were an adult right next to a child. That's something that is part of our DNA. Every single thing that happens has a positive feedback from this voiceover that generates some engagement with the kid. At the same time, it's really clear on when you need a parent. For example, if you are touching something that you need an adult, we have a parental gate, which is a feature that every kid app must have. We say, "Hey, go and find an adult for this."

[00:08:25.910] - Jeff Grang
Amazing. Speaking of parental gate and what makes a kids' app very specific, you have to face some challenges. I'm not sure that all our audiences knows about these challenges that a kids' app, which is a very specific category both in the App Store and the Google Play Store. There's some specific rule. Can you maybe walk us through those specificities?

[00:08:47.040] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
Yeah, so I guess probably the biggest one is complying with all the regulations regarding privacy. Every app has to be COPPA compliant regarding privacy, security, how you host the data, what information you actually require from the user. It's really important that every kid app follows and is compliant with that.

[00:09:09.130] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
I would say also, like I mentioned before, you cannot include any purchase without a parental gate. That's really important when they check the app that nothing can happen wrong there. You cannot include any external link. For example, if you want to highlight your Instagram page, you cannot have an external link without a parental gate.

[00:09:29.060] - Jeff Grang
You cannot switch your app, I think. You cannot even open another app or navigator, right?

[00:09:33.760] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
Yeah. It's something you have to provide a complete safe environment, which in a way aligns interest with parents and the App Store and at the same time the developer. A lot of what we communicate in the App Store listing is regarding this. Papumba is completely safe. We have some seals that guarantee that. I think it's a win-win for the industry.

[00:09:56.310] - Jeff Grang
Yeah, it's a win-win, but still, there's a lot of things that are much more difficult for you guys than for any other app. Not speaking about attribution, but also contacting the customers directly. That must be really complicated to do all the things, right?

[00:10:11.160] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
Yeah, I agree. When it comes to advertising, it's not as other categories, so I completely agree.

[00:10:18.580] - Olivier Destrebecq
Earlier in the interview, you mentioned that you guys are present in multiple markets and you've localized your app in multiple languages. As you said, not just the text, but also the voiceovers and all that stuff. I'm curious, what can you share with our listeners that you've learned through that process?

[00:10:34.250] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
I guess, first, we are a company that we are Spanish speaking first. From the moment we created Papumba, we created first in English, Portuguese, and Spanish. Then we realized that the opportunity was much bigger. I think that was the biggest lesson we learned. Just to mention some numbers, even though the US is our biggest market, outside the US, there are more than 200 million families that have kids from two to eight and have mobile phones. They don't have many choices in their native language because mostly the main markets are, like I mentioned, Spanish, Portuguese, and English. That was the first learning.

[00:11:11.870] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
We had a lot of people downloading the app from countries like Indonesia, France. So we created this team. At first, obviously, it took some effort because we had to build a team of translators and voiceovers. We currently have 35 professionals working on that specifically. But as we started to do it, we became good at it and now it's cost-effective. It requires effort, but what I would say currently, 40% of our revenue comes from other countries outside of LatAm or the US. I think it's worth.

[00:11:45.820] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
What I would say, probably on the negative side, our app, since it's a platform and has games and we do everything in 15 languages, the QA process is more challenging. You have to check every single thing in every screen resolution in Arabic, in Japanese. That's something that includes an extra cost and maybe delays a little bit more the releases. But in the end, it's more like a bet of thinking like, "Yeah, we want to have a global company."

[00:12:17.840] - Jeff Grang
You mentioned the Arabic and do you support right to left?

[00:12:20.740] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
Yeah.

[00:12:21.470] - Jeff Grang
We support this in Purchasely SDK too, and that's a big deal.

[00:12:26.310] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
Yeah, Chinese.

[00:12:26.800] - Jeff Grang
The QA Is a whole different-

[00:12:28.970] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
Absolutely. That's something that our QA team, sometimes they cry a little bit because they have to proofread everything. Basically, it's quite challenging to compare the original text with the one you see.

[00:12:44.350] - Olivier Destrebecq
One of my first job when I was software engineer was working at Texas Instrument. They told me how they had an app for the Periodic Table of Elements. When it got translated to Spanish, it got translated into menstruation instead of Periodic Table of Elements. Of course, they didn't necessarily know until somebody on their team that spoke Spanish was like, "No, that's not going to work."

[00:13:12.260] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
I could write a book of users' feedback regarding that. Since you guys know French, there was one time we were teaching the animals and we translated chicken and somehow the translation was the food, not the animal. When the kid was checking the animals, it was the animal but he was listening to the sound of the food. It's important to check that.

[00:13:39.890] - Olivier Destrebecq
Yeah, good. As I was researching you for the interview, I saw that you published a document on LinkedIn about how you guys quadrupled your annual plan adoption, which is something that is pretty good. Can you walk us through it? Actually, before you do that, I highly recommend people to look you up on LinkedIn and go look at the document because I found the document to be awesome and really well made. But with that said…

[00:14:05.060] - Jeff Grang
Yeah, Olivier, and we'll share it on the blog, on the Purchasely blog. Every episode, we have a text resume, et cetera, so we'll share that on the blog too.

[00:14:14.170] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
Yeah. First, thanks for recommending that on the newsletter and on LinkedIn. Personally, I think that was fun because it was the first time we share learnings that our team has on LinkedIn. I think why we created this document is first, because unlike other apps that you can monetize your product with friction inside the app, to us, 80% of our conversion happens in the onboarding, first two minutes. We have a specific team that is iterating every release in what are the steps including the onboarding and the pricing and the offering. We learn a lot.

[00:14:52.180] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
One of the things we started to improve was actually how can we increase lifetime value? Because obviously, when you have a lot of people that has monthly subscriptions, especially when you have a global market, there is an aspect that has to do with involuntary churn that we work a lot, but still a percentage of people will churn because of billing issues. What we wanted to increase was the adoption of annual plans. At the moment, we started the improvements, only 10% of our user base had an annual plan. We wanted to take that to 50%, 60%, 70% ideally to basically reduce churn and reduce the instances that we have to renew.

[00:15:32.160] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
What does this document include? It's basically a series of experiments that our growth marketing did during last year. It starts with what was our previous offer. Here, I must say I was a little bit biased to change this because from my understanding, if you are trying something for the first time, it doesn't make much sense, or it didn't make much sense to offer an annual commitment instead of a monthly, so we went with that at the beginning. But we found that after iterating the first time, we included also the annual plan with a really nice discount. Suddenly, 40% of our user base started to prefer the annual plan. That was mind-blowing to me. I didn't expect that, but I started to talk with the other entrepreneurs and they said, "Yeah, it's working."

[00:16:22.370] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
We tried it and we basically started to iterate that page. If you see the document, you will see that we started to make it simpler, highlighting more the annual plan discount. Currently, we are in some markets with 60% adoption of annual plans and you can see everything we did on that document. But we try including emojis, simplifying the benefits, highlighting with more attractive colors, the annual plans. We learned some good stuff. We learned what doesn't work as well because obviously not every experiment is a winner.

[00:16:56.550] - Olivier Destrebecq
That was actually one of the question because in the document obviously, you outline each step going up in a way. Are there some that you remember that you tried and it just didn't work?

[00:17:07.570] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
I take that, and I think on our next experiment, we will share some bad things because it's also good to learn from that. But since I have the opportunity here, I must say we tried some things. We got so excited about the annual plans that we changed from offering only the monthly plan to suddenly only offering the annual plan. We wanted to see how that does work. But I would say it doesn't work, or at least to us, it didn't work on markets that are not so mature, like the US or some European countries. In Latin America or China, people prefer the monthly plan.

[00:17:43.260] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
There is the thing about what you preselect because what we have found is that the user usually follows what you recommend. If you preselect the monthly plan and you put a button that says continue, it's very likely that the majority of the users will continue what we call the happy path. We try to preselect the annual plan and in some countries, it didn't work or offer the only chance, like the annual plan.

[00:18:07.820] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
There is this other thing we tried that didn't work. We thought mentioning too many things on the offering page regarding the transaction, like, "Start your free trial," was not the best idea. So we tried to think what could be better and we said, "Okay, let's try some more aspirational title here," like, "Enlight your child's world," for example, then the benefits and then the pricing. But people didn't understand that there was the free trial. Nothing beats the word free, I think, when a user is trying that. Currently, we try to simplify that. Start your free trial. Start your seven-day free trial, and that works better.

[00:18:48.420] - Jeff Grang
Making all these tests on different countries for these populations, did you end up creating some cohorts of countries or some grouping of countries where you know these kinds of experiments, they behave in the same way, and so you'll be targeting to only these countries? Or do you still try to address in the same way all the different geographics?

[00:19:09.460] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
I would say when it comes to A/B testing, everything we launch usually is A/B test, unless we release a big feature. We usually try in our two biggest markets, which are Brazil and the US. Usually, when something works in one of those markets, we try to split and only do an experiment in one country. If it works, replicate to the other and then to the rest of the world. But yeah, we have found that Asia, for example, has more in common with Latin America than the US. What works in the US, usually we try to replicate to Europe or to Canada or to Australia. Then we have in our minds is more Asia and LatAm more similar.

[00:19:50.600] - Jeff Grang
Okay, very interesting. What would you say is the big next challenge for you at Papumba to solve? You address kids to seven year old, is it going even further? What are your next challenges? You were saying you were raising money, maybe it's to develop your product and find new market, but what else is on the line here?

[00:20:10.010] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
Answering this, I feel like we are handling challenges like a chef with too many plates in the oven sometimes. I think that happens to a lot of startups because you see a lot of things to develop and to continue learning. But I can mention probably two priorities we have right now. One is, few weeks ago, we launched a basic plan that's basically free for users. At the moment, we only have the premium experience. One of the challenges we have this year is to find the right balance of free content to offer so that we can expand the monthly active users, but don't cannibalize the premium plan and show actually the benefits of the premium plan. That's something like we have this new product and we are super excited.

[00:20:57.360] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
Then we have our team completely focused right now on building the habit. We are working on a seven-day journey for kids and for parents. We have launched recently new verticals on the app. We have these book sections, audiobooks, yoga classes, and videos. Until last year, Papumba was only known for educational games. We are involving more the parents in the experience and creating habit through some specific things families does, like reading a bedtime story at night. Those are two challenges ahead.

[00:21:32.750] - Jeff Grang
Apple has released recently a lot of features around parental gates or parental APIs to be able to block the kid's screen time, et cetera. Given access to that, do you intend to use this?

[00:21:43.280] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
Yeah, we're currently researching that. We haven't implemented yet, but I think that's exciting. If there is some pattern that the App Store or Google Play creates to actually, instead of having every app having their own parental gates, have something more standard. But I think there are a lot of things happening right now with AI. As a startup, you need to basically decide which are the efforts that can generate more impact. We think everything related to building habit is a priority. When you have so many teams inside a company or a startup and you don't have a clear north on what is the focus right now, sometimes it can lead to many atomic solutions to a lot of things. We try to focus on one or two things per… I would say for two quarters, we try to focus on one or two big projects.

[00:22:37.070] - Jeff Grang
Very wise. Laser focus.

[00:22:39.680] - Olivier Destrebecq
You shared a lot with us today and lots of great answers. If people want to learn more about you, where can they go?

[00:22:45.470] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
Yeah, they can go to www.papumba.com. There is Papumba there. You can also find us on the Google Play or the App Store. We are also quite active on LinkedIn if you want to connect. Jeff is showing me the App Store listing. Happy to receive any feedback and connect with other entrepreneurs or people from the industry.

[00:23:09.240] - Olivier Destrebecq
Definitely. Thank you so much for joining us. It was a pleasure to have you on the show and I'll hope to chat again with you when you get your next award.

[00:23:17.040] - Gonzalo Rodriguez
Thanks. Likewise, great podcast. Congratulations.

[00:23:21.570] - Olivier Destrebecq
Thanks, Gonzalo.

[00:23:22.370] - Jeff Grang
Thank you.

[00:23:23.320] - Olivier Destrebecq
On behalf of the Purchasely team, thank you for listening to the Subscription League podcast. If you've enjoyed what you heard, leave us a five-star review on iTunes or other audio platform. To find out more about Purchasely and how we can improve your subscription business, visit purchasely.com. Please hit subscribe in your podcast player and don't miss any future episodes. You can also listen to previous episodes at subscriptionleague.com. See you soon.