In the beginning, Jodel's choice of growth model was selling traditional ad spaces because it was a more effortless and quicker option to scale as a startup.
With the vision to provide advertisers with a unique experience to engage with the local community, Jodel revamped the In-App Advertising experience with In-App Purchases, simplifying the payment process and diversifying ad opportunities.
Today, Jodel’s primary revenue stream comes from the combination of In-App Subscription and In-App Purchase of Consumables.
Listen to the full episode to learn more about Jodel’s journey to improve the app with new features, unexpected winners and losers in its optimization journey, and its most significant challenges today in increasing revenues.
For noteworthy quotes and key takeaways from the episode, read the article - Shifting from ads to In-App Subscription-led revenue generation with Tim Schmitz (Jodel)
Episode Topics at a Glance
- Jodel's Hyperlocal Community and the challenges it represents
- Scaling with Advertisements
- Combining In-App Subscriptions and Consumables In-App Purchases
- Unexpected features: winners & losers
- User feedback and Being a user themselves
- Challenges to increasing revenue and subscriptions
More about Tim Schmitz
Tim is the COO and Co-Founder of Jodel. Over time he managed all functions of the company like Product, Growth, Community, Tech and Monetization. Prior to Jodel, Tim studied at ESADE Business School and worked in banking and consulting. Tim grew up with strong ties to software development due to his father who owns a software company. During his exchange semester at San Diego State University, Tim met Alessio Avellan Borgmeye with whom he founded Jodel together.
Tim Schmitz’s Links
00:21 Presentation with Phiture
01:08 Welcoming Tim Schmitz and the Jodel app
01:33 Jodel's Hyperlocal Community and challenges it represents
04:08 Worldwide users for Jodel
04:48 Features and strategy behind Jodel's paywalls
09:31 How did you mix subscriptions and in-app purchases?
11:58 Strategy to determine what is free or purchasable
15:29 Unexpected features: winners & losers
17:13 Do you combine tests with user reviews to make your determinations?
20:39 Did you ever have a bug that became a feature?
23:35 How do you keep a pulse on feedback for hacking?
24:27 Challenges to increasing revenue and subscriptions
[00:00:22.020] - Olivier Destrebecq
Hey, Nicolas, we're recording today because last week you had a big presentation. How did you go?
[00:00:27.770] - Nicolas Tissier
Hello, Olivier. It was just fantastic. It was a roundtable in Berlin that we organised with a feature, a very famous mobile growth marketing agency. And we've been discussing with greater app experts on dynamic paywall optimisation. And how those experts leverage on paywall to maximize conversion, retention and revenue. The session was recorded and it will be available very soon on the Purchasely website. So stay tuned.
[00:00:56.850] - Olivier Destrebecq
Yeah, that sounds like an awesome roundtable and feature we had Andy Carvell actually with us in the last episode. If you want to hear more about what they're doing, you can check I believe Episode 1 and Episode 10. But today we've invited Tim Schmitz to join us.
[00:01:11.920] - Olivier Destrebecq
He's the Co-founder of Jodel, where they are building a unique way for people to share and connect at a local level. So far, you have expanded rapidly across Europe and Saudi Arabia and are continuing that expansion. So Tim, welcome to the show, and is there anything you'd like to add to the intro I just made?
[00:01:29.260] - Tim Schmitz
Thank you for the warm welcome. No, that was perfect.
[00:01:33.140] - Olivier Destrebecq
You're welcome. You guys are building an application for hyper local content. What challenges does this application represent?
[00:01:42.680] - Tim Schmitz
In general, we believe that a local community platform is one of the few outstanding opportunities in the social space. But we also believe that there is a reason why it doesn't exist yet, because it's very hard. Why? Because we are not building one global community where we have to moderate scale, content, build the architecture, et cetera. But we are building basically hundreds or thousands within a country. And they're all different even within a country, they are different between countries, they are different, locations are very different and that's the USP of our product. But also the challenge of what we're building.
[00:02:19.220] - Olivier Destrebecq
I know, for example, a lot of people are doing marketing online and getting users to their app through Facebook, those kind of thing. I'm sure you guys are doing that, too. But are there any other way that you guys have to approach that problem because you're doing hyper local?
[00:02:32.090] - Tim Schmitz
So marketing wise, definitely it's also like challenging to built local communities. If you have global communities, you have this one critical mass of users that you need. And this one critical mass of users once you have it, it just grows from there. But for us, obviously, it's also this is much bigger of a challenge because basically, we need to create that critical mass within every single location, basically within every single city.
[00:02:56.480] - Tim Schmitz
Which also is a simple problem of what channels do we use in order to grow within a location because purely digital is usually hard because the penetration mission within one city. There's a certain amount of people you reach within your target demographic, within one location. Then the digital channels through which you reach them, then obviously some conversion.
[00:03:18.200] - Tim Schmitz
This month is difficult, which is why usually many location-based provider, they also still do offline, something like flyers, et cetera. Just to get more eyeballs on the product, more downloads, reach critical mass within a location, and that's also what we did in the past. We still do that actually, and still trying to find, let's say right now our right, let's say, marketing channels to grow locally. But it's also definitely a challenge because we are massively decreasing the potential user base by just being able to target in one demographic in one location.
[00:03:50.830] - Olivier Destrebecq
I'm curious you mentioned passing out flyers. Have you been a good start-up founders and did you go on the street and pass out flyers yourself?
[00:03:57.370] - Tim Schmitz
Of course. I haven't done it in a while now, but we all did that. Actually, we did like when we launched like all of us were pretty much on the road but it worked out quite well.
[00:04:08.690] - Olivier Destrebecq
Just one quick question. How many countries, how many users are we speaking about here?
[00:04:14.450] - Tim Schmitz
So we have around 3 million MAUs around that? Yeah, it always depends a little bit on what you consider active.
[00:04:22.400] - Olivier Destrebecq
Of course, and in how many countries are you deployed?
[00:04:26.520] - Tim Schmitz
Our biggest markets are the Dutch markets, so Germany also Switzerland and the Nordics, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark. But then we do have views all over the world, especially also in the Arabic countries, especially Saudi Arabia and a few people in the US, few people in France like across the world, basically.
[00:04:46.700] - Olivier Destrebecq
Great. That's amazing. What I think is a very special aspect of IOTO is that you guys are a social media app and yet it's not completely free. There are some features that people pay for apart from boosting and what some people might consider ads. I'm curious if you can tell us what features you guys put behind a paywall and how did you get there to ask user to pay for those features?
[00:05:12.310] - Tim Schmitz
Our broader monetisation strategy at the beginning, we just started with obviously ads because it's just the model that is most known. And let's say easiest to scale at the beginning, I guess. We started doing that like a while ago and we created some like, let's say, standard commodity features ads, but also some that are, let's say, purely native to Jodel, which is a very local, engaging, easy to use format which we call boost the post or like back then even the digital ad column.
[00:05:42.270] - Tim Schmitz
Basically what we wanted to do with this is give advertisers a unique experience to engage with the local community. But our vision obviously was also always to get in touch with at least one important part of the local community is obviously the people, then there is local institutions, et cetera. But one is also local businesses like cafes around the corner, et cetera.
[00:06:04.070] - Tim Schmitz
Our idea was why don't we just give this same feature, make it available instead of only professional advertisers, also to the café next door. And that's when the idea was to just put the same pretty much add behind, like in a purchase. We made it quite expensive at the beginning, because obviously I'll reach in some location already pretty high. We had to make sure that you know we're not selling ourselves under value.
[00:06:27.000] - Tim Schmitz
We just created the basically the same ad as an in-app purchase. Just try it out and the hypothesis was that, yes, these people that could be doing Facebook ads. But Facebook ads, if you've done it recently, it's complicated and not many café owners would be able to even pull it off. Our idea was, why don't we just make it very simple, it's native. You just go in, you just do Apple Pay, have this app up and running. And you immediately reach people within your location.
[00:06:54.190] - Tim Schmitz
That was the first in-app purchase and we actually saw people doing it, although it was like 500 bucks or something like that. And that was the first we ever did. Obviously, like this has to be behind a paywall, otherwise users would be going crazy. But that's when we figured that also many users they didn't purely put, "Hey, come to my café or, hey, do this."
[00:07:14.180] - Tim Schmitz
But many users also put just funny things behind it or boosted content that was user generated, that was kind of, yeah, just like regular content. There wasn't even, let's say, promotional content. And that's when we doubled down on it. We improved on the boosting, made it available like just for so much smaller amounts of money, like 99 cents, et cetera. Added another bunch of other features on top and very quickly saw that there's very significant possibility behind this.
[00:07:44.650] - Tim Schmitz
Actually the formats in itself are much cooler because as always, value detracting so they take attention away from your platform. If you have a 1% CTR, which would be very good for an ad, that means that you're showing the ad to 99% of people, then for them it's not relevant versus in-app purchase is their win-win. Because number one, you are adding value to a user because this user pays and for the other user, it's even good because there's good content being promoted and the other users also benefit from it.
[00:08:13.920] - Tim Schmitz
That's why we leveraged much more on it, build more features and various significantly got to scale. Also got inspired by a few fellow co-founders, for example, Youbo, they also completely stopped the ads and just went for in-app purchases and had super amount of success about it. Yeah, that's how it came along.
[00:08:32.810] - Olivier Destrebecq
Cool, and so you mentioned boosting. What are other features that you guys put behind a paywall?
[00:08:38.630] - Tim Schmitz
We created reactions, but then some special reactions that have special utility behind. For example, you can donate a week of Jodel Plus, which or subscription to another user. Or you can hug another user, you know, like some reactions, like there's some default standard reactions that are obviously free, but then some other ones they are paid.
[00:08:58.610] - Tim Schmitz
We tried quite a few more recently we focused more on that, like where we these were more consumables and our reason we focus more on subscription. A very early feature that we actually did was also that you can post Jodel in a colour, in a special colour. We still have that actually. You can post a black, Jodel is very colourful, you have red, green, whatever blue. Then you could post a black Jodel, which obviously, especially in Berlin, was very popular. But yeah, some of these. I think boost reaction, coloured Jodel and subscription are the biggest interest right now.
[00:09:32.160] - Olivier Destrebecq
You just mentioned that you guys have subscriptions and most of apps that I know of once they move to subscription, they abandoned the in-app purchase altogether. Where you guys use it on both from. Can you tell us what do you use for subscription? What do you use for in-app and how did you get to that mix?
[00:09:48.710] - Tim Schmitz
We started off with consumables, mostly because it's just easier to take it away again. Because once you have a subscription and the user paid for it technically, you can't remove that anymore until because these are paid for it. We started off with consumables just to get accustomed to it, to feel more comfortable, et cetera. Also consumables is a super good feature to monetize whales , because obviously if you have a subscription, you're capping on the upside because you only able to spend 90 or 99.
[00:10:20.320] - Tim Schmitz
But there are some users that want to boost so much that they would spend hundreds of euros every day so you're capping the upside on that user. That's why we started off with consumables. It's just easier to experiment with, you're not committing just yet. At the same time it monetize very well on the whales.
[00:10:37.000] - Tim Schmitz
Eventually we found that especially in, let's say, Western Europe, consumables, they weren't, let's say use so much because we felt like that subscription was the more knowledgeable, let's say, buying within an app in Europe. We added it on top, started off with a very simple subscription where you just don't see ads. Then added some credits to it every week. You get three boosts for free every week. You get three reactions for every week.
[00:11:08.420] - Tim Schmitz
But then if you want to have more, you still have to do the consumable. We have some base level where users are happy with. But then, you know, the whales they can spend more. That's how we got into it and then we focused more on the subscription. And actually that's when we also found out after adding some features that weren't available also as a consumable, that the revenue significantly increased on that subscription. Now the subscription is actually bigger than our consumables.
[00:11:33.060] - Tim Schmitz
I think it's like consumables is good as a way to monetize whales and because with some people that will just spend a lot of money. It's like in gaming where it's also like that. But then the subscription is just like a very recurring revenue, and that is also many users are more accustomed to. We added some features that are available only as consumable. We added some features that are only available in the description, and the mix for us so far worked out really well.
[00:11:59.040] - Olivier Destrebecq
But there is a balance to find here because you are a social platform. It needs to be free to be able to grow the community, but at the same time, you're monetizing some features. Do you have a particular strategy to define, okay, this will be free because it's mandatory to use the platform and this point, and we can monetize it with the subscription and or the in-app purchases?
[00:12:21.230] - Tim Schmitz
Yes, so the way we experiment for us, it was actually pretty complex. We always start with just throwing all ideas in without any limitation to our minds and then we run experiments with it. Basically what we created is like a platform or like a feature where we fake the Apple payment flow and then we can configure from the back end, like certain icons in the app that would appear in certain parts of the app, and then configure a pop up message that like, "Hey, you can now do xyz. Do you want to buy this?" And then we say, "Yes buy now or no, don't." And then if we say, "Yes, buy now," we can fake the Apple payment flow.
[00:13:01.300] - Tim Schmitz
And after the payment, we say, "Hey, this feature is not available just yet in [inaudible 00:13:05] bidder, we didn't charge you, etc. Just to measure the conversion and just to see what would users be willing to pay for. Because that like then you have all, let's say, ideas on the table, and you actually have verified statistical information whether a user would buy this or not before actually developing the feature. It takes, 20 minutes to run such an experiment.
[00:13:25.730] - Tim Schmitz
But then afterwards, of course, there's a lot of ideas where you have to watch out in the social platform. Like, what we always try to avoid is created two class society. We always wanted to make sure that the features that we are actually going to develop that the users that use it for free. They have basically the same experience as the users that pay for it but the ones that pay for it is more like nice to haves.
[00:13:48.050] - Tim Schmitz
You can Jodel, you can reach to people around, you can do pretty much everything. But if you want to boost it so reach more people. Obviously, that's not a necessary feature for every user. Or like a react you can use a standard reaction, but then there's certain other ones that you can use.
[00:14:05.000] - Tim Schmitz
Examples of ones that we actually abandoned was something like, I was very bullish on this, we have a few banned people and they're desperately want to get in, back in. So why not make these people pay, could just get back in, because then apparently these users, they are really desperate to come back in and they will probably behave to not be able to pay anymore.
[00:14:23.430] - Tim Schmitz
But obviously, something like that we won't be able to do, we never really cut on engagement. Something like chatting or something like that one-on-one chatting was always free, posting is always free. But then things that you not necessarily need something like I don't see ads or like I post a black Jodel. These things are nice to have and the user apparently they're willing to pay for it, but it's definitely not something that every user would need.
[00:14:48.580] - Olivier Destrebecq
Yeah, that's awesome. I like this fake it until you make it. And those smoke tests you mentioned, that's also, I think, a very good way to drive your roadmap by identifying the opportunities, the business potential of a particular feature and then to develop it after you know that it's going to draw money.
[00:15:07.370] - Tim Schmitz
Yes, it's just very important because especially with big features, you're putting significant risk. If you need one month to develop a feature that's like 50K of cost. If you do that, better be certain that this is likely going to drive revenue. And for us, it worked very well because we actually did roll out the majority of the features that we developed because we did have very clear confidence already before that with these tests.
[00:15:31.230] - Olivier Destrebecq
Sounds like you did a lot of experimentation around all those features. I'm sure you run into some unexpected winners and unexpected losers. Do you mind sharing with us, like of the few ones that truly came, the other way than you thought they would?
[00:15:45.000] - Tim Schmitz
Sure, so unexpected winners, definitely, for example, that colour feature. I would have never expected that somebody would pay for a Jodel being in black because I just thought that's useless. Like who would ever spend money on that? But then we tested it, and the conversions were pretty good. Like, "Oh, well, maybe we should do it." It was just like one or two. We probably wouldn't have developed it like this, but it was actually a pretty small feature like two days and the conversions were good. So we did it.
[00:16:11.740] - Tim Schmitz
Within the first month we made something like 10, 20K or something like that for which for one or two day feature is pretty good. This definitely was an unexpected winner. Also, the whole reactions, like sending a super hard to another user or something like that. I wouldn't have imagined there was that good. But then we tested experimented with it and it was very successful. We built it and immediately it made quite significant amount of money.
[00:16:35.960] - Tim Schmitz
And expected losers. I was very confident on increasing the radius of your post. Now you see it within a 10 kilometer radius within your city if you just post and then just like instead of boosting it to more people in your location, also increasing the radius to maybe like 50 kilometers. I would have 100% thought this would be a very successful feature, but then we ran the experiment. And again, like one of the experiments is like 20 minutes or something that we ran it and literally zero people converted like, okay, some.
[00:17:03.170] - Tim Schmitz
I'm losing on this one. We didn't build it. I can't tell obviously now if it would have in real life work, but probably not because literally zero people converted.
[00:17:14.160] - Olivier Destrebecq
Yeah, just a quick question here. Do you combine those extensive tests with user interviews to then understand why the feature you mentioned about raising the radius of your post didn't work? You have any idea at the end or you just know that it's not a good idea and you pass to the next one?
[00:17:34.260] - Tim Schmitz
We do it, but more with the... Back then we ran like 100 experiments a month. In a single month, we would have like, so obviously we can't focus on all of them and understand each one of them. But the ones where we were either very confident about, that we very much wanted to do or that just performed really well, obviously, these ones, we then went much deeper into.
[00:17:57.950] - Tim Schmitz
For example, one of the most successful ones of fake buttons that, we call those fake button experiments because it's just like an experiment for a fake one. The most successful one we ever did was tipping. So tipping other users similar to other platforms like Twitch, Tera. And in those ones, of course, then we go deep and we really try to understand in what use cases, what you do it, why would you do it, what's your intention behind it, how much what you donate, et cetera.
[00:18:23.900] - Tim Schmitz
Just to make sure, especially on the winners also sometimes, it's just a math game because consumables, obviously recurrence is much higher. But also something like donating suddenly, you're not having 100% of the margin anymore. In those cases, of course, it's important to go deep, especially on the bigger features but we couldn't do that with all 100 of every month of the experiments, simply due to time reasons.
[00:18:48.180] - Olivier Destrebecq
This is awesome. And I'm curious for the unexpected winners. Do you feel like now that I guess you had more experience with the project, that you have a better understanding as to why they're working or are you still baffled by those working now?
[00:19:03.710] - Tim Schmitz
Of course, with each fake button experiment, you're getting more knowledge and shaping your... Also gut feeling about the product, what could work, what couldn't work. For example, one of the things that I learned, especially with something like reactions was the whole social dynamic behind it. Like gifting, donating, et cetera, all of this is, it goes like we're not a dating platform, but it goes into dating.
[00:19:31.810] - Tim Schmitz
Everything that was directed towards this, let's a social dynamic, I figured they would all work. Also something like on Jodel right now, you don't have a public profile yet. Here again, there was a big question of how should we do it to not create it to class society, because obviously everybody should be able to have like some a basic public profile.
[00:19:52.700] - Tim Schmitz
What I'm really bullish on right now, for example, is that you can create a public profile where right now everybody has a little coloured raccoon. And that you can have a standard set of, let's say maybe ten more emojis that you can put as your, let's say profile emoji. But then I have 20 more that are paid because then also you're uniquely identifying yourself and it goes into that whole, getting to know meeting people.
[00:20:17.060] - Tim Schmitz
That's something where I would now be very bullish on based upon those learnings because all these social dynamics so far work really well. It's not like you're afterwards like obviously certain you're never certain, like many things don't work. And many times things do work when you don't believe it. But let's say you're shaping your gut feeling, you're shaping your product knowledge, you're shaping your feeling towards what could work and yeah?
[00:20:39.500] - Olivier Destrebecq
One question I love to ask people in those interviews, and I don't do it every time, and I actually didn't do it in our prep interview. I don't even know if you have an answer to that question. But did you ever had a bug that shipped in production and then you realize that it should just be a feature, that bug is the best thing ever, the best accident that you ever had?
[00:20:59.690] - Tim Schmitz
It's a good question. Bugs probably like a direct bugs, maybe not so much. Let's say what we more had was on social platforms I always found really interesting is that a lot of users they a find workarounds towards features they really want to have. For example, how Jodel was created is also like that.
[00:21:26.050] - Tim Schmitz
Back in the days in the US and in Europe, there were groups like Spotted, which was university admin groups of anonymous, let's say. Yeah, like admins that would repost what people would send them for the University. There's like Spotted uni Mannheim, Spotted RJC, Spotted I don't know what. It's the same as Jodel because everybody was following that page because you submit to an admin and this user would then repost to the entire University.
[00:21:51.730] - Tim Schmitz
The US, it was called confessions. You had maybe UC Berkeley confessions, UCSB confessions, et cetera, and you would post. Basically, they would use Facebook towards tapping into a local graph. But Facebook is not made for a local graph. Facebook is made towards your friends graph or by now, your global graph and we had a lot of these things.
[00:22:11.220] - Tim Schmitz
For example, at the beginning, we had a lot of, let's say, users, you would have a post and it was a very interesting local story. People would want to follow it but we didn't have any follow functionality. They would always comment with pin emoji because then they would find their post again in my reply Jodels. And at the same time, they were good notifications because they replied on that post.
[00:22:35.010] - Tim Schmitz
What we did was we just put a pin button on the top of the Jodel then, and then we just created that feature based on how users hacked their way into it. Or another one was cable car emoji that people would always use because we didn't have a functionality to jump on the top or bottom of a post. People would post a cable car, so it would bring them to the bottom of the post.
[00:22:58.920] - Tim Schmitz
But then obviously, the post was always spammed. We created a cable car functionality that would make you jump on the top or bottom of the Jodel. These ones like it's not bugs, but it's, let's say, very weird dynamics that users hacked their way into because they needed that feature.
[00:23:15.270] - Tim Schmitz
Then building that feature, and those ones were always super successful because users already did it. It was now just much more simple and obviously, it's good that you listen to the community, you know what the community is up to. Because they do this. It's not really bugs, but more like, let's say users hacking their way into features that don't exist.
[00:23:34.650] - Olivier Destrebecq
Yeah. What I find great about this story is that it shows that you guys are paying attention to your user base and implementing features for, you know, that they're hacking their way around the app right now. I'm curious how do you keep a pulse on that users to find those hacking so you can create features that make it easier?
[00:23:54.020] - Tim Schmitz
We obviously use the platform ourselves. That's like always the best way to do it. But then obviously we do it like listen to all the user feedback, basically. If you post something on the order with hash tag feedback, it's immediately bot will post into our slack so that we would immediately get the feedback.
[00:24:11.940] - Tim Schmitz
There's a bunch of those and we do a lot of service, we do a lot of these things. But then most importantly, obviously, we use the app ourselves a lot. I guess that's the combination of all of user interviews, the combination of all of those channels are like where we derive from a roadmap from.
[00:24:28.200] - Olivier Destrebecq
Just an open question. What are your current and incoming challenges regarding increasing the revenue and in-app purchases and subscription? Do you have anything to share?
[00:24:39.520] - Tim Schmitz
Yes, like challenges towards increasing revenue and subscription? Basically, the biggest challenge is obviously just like playing pure marketing because we're still trying to find the right marketing channels and loading more users because more users means always more revenue.
[00:24:54.020] - Tim Schmitz
Because the percentage conversion of MAUs, they usually stay the same. The easiest way is to load in more users. Right now we are trying to figure out what marketing channels because they always change. Right now, let's say we don't have figured out yet which ones would work for us right now, specifically towards revenue, especially with the subscription.
[00:25:15.320] - Tim Schmitz
We put in a lot of, let's say, features that perform very well on those fake buttons, and they work really well. The subscription grew a lot. But now let's say, easy solutions through which we could scale this we're out of them. Now the next features that would come, there would be bigger bets, something like profile. Because you don't have a public profile yet and we see people want it, people already do it.
[00:25:42.550] - Tim Schmitz
We should create it and then put a pay feature on top of it, but this is obviously a big change to the platform. It's a big feature to be developed, the little hey, make a black Jodel features. Also you can't put too much of them, because otherwise a lot of users, they're already complaining. "Oh, now every second feature here is behind a paywall." You have to watch out that this doesn't happen. You can't have 20 of those features, but rather maybe five.
[00:26:08.120] - Tim Schmitz
These five, of course, like right now we found the ones that were easy and that create a lot of revenue. But now let's say this scale is going to increase. We have to find better features than those that at the same time will probably rather be bigger.
[00:26:23.110] - Tim Schmitz
That means more invest, more risk. I'd say that is the biggest challenge right now to make sure, number one, we still find impactful features. Number two, these ones are better than the current ones because we don't just want to add 10 on top. At the same time, make sure that those ones are still, let's say, three-month projects, but build these little two, three, four or five day features, hopefully, that we are trying to create. Hope that makes sense.
[00:26:47.260] - Olivier Destrebecq
Amazing. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense, of course.
[00:26:50.460] - Tim Schmitz
[00:26:51.510] - Olivier Destrebecq
Those are all the questions that we had for you today. I want to thank you very much for joining us on the podcast today. Those were really great answers and got lots of value in it. Thank you again.
[00:27:02.950] - Olivier Destrebecq
Thank you very much, Tim.
[00:27:03.950] - Tim Schmitz
Thank you very much for hosting me. Thank you.