Rootd - How to bootstrap #1 health and fitness app with Ania Wysocka

Olivier Destrebecq:
Welcome to the Subscription League, the podcast by Purchasely. Listen to what's working in subscription apps. In each episode, we invite leaders of the app industry who're mastering the subscription model for mobile apps. To learn more about subscriptions, head to subscriptionleague.com. Let's get started.

Olivier Destrebecq:
Hey Jeff. I hope you're doing great because we have another great guest. Today, we're talking with Ania Wysocka. She founded Rootd over three years ago and has managed to get over one million users and she bootstrap the whole thing. So Ania, welcome to the podcast, and do you want to tell us more about you and about Rootd?

Ania Wysocka:
Sure. Yeah. First off, thanks very much for having me here, and to tell a little bit more about Rootd. Rootd is an app for panic attack and anxiety relief. It's available on both iOS and Google Play, and it has a number of different features to help somebody if they're in the middle of a panic attack or if they're struggling with general anxiety, so they may not have actual panic attacks, but they struggle with daily anxiety.

Ania Wysocka:
It is a therapist approved tool with lots of different features, including a journal tool, lessons, that panic attack button, a breathing tool, visualization tool, sleep tool, and it's all gamified, so you collect points as you go. In terms of myself, I don't have a background in technology, but I just found my way into this. I actually graduated in international relations, but soon afterwards, I started doing graphic design and different website development for companies, branding communications, and I started Rootd due to my own personal experience with anxiety and panic attacks. And it has just been my life's work ever since.

Olivier Destrebecq:
It's really nice that A, you've done something for you and B, that you bootstrapped the whole thing. I'm really amazed that you went from zero to one million user and you can tell us, you're probably higher than this, but essentially, it was one million in the first three years. Can you tell us about those early days and how the project got started?

Ania Wysocka:
Yeah, so I didn't have much of a budget at all. I went to an agency, I said, "Hey, this is what I'm thinking. This is what I'd like to create." And they said, "Sure, that'll be $50,000." And I was like, "Oh no. I can't afford that." So I ended up just teaching myself about wire framing about UI and UX design, because I did do web design previously, just never on mobile, and just reading blogs and articles on how it works. I'm not a technical founder whatsoever, but it really does help to know just a little bit because then your conversations with developers are easier.

Ania Wysocka:
Finally, I found a student developer, he said, "Hey, I really want to work on something that's actually doing something good for the world. I'm in university, all these projects I'm working on for credits are just for big companies, I'd like to do something that actually helps people." So that's how we got together, and then we started working on it and the first versions were really difficult in the sense that there was a lot of bugs.

Ania Wysocka:
Looking back now, and how much I've learned, I realize how poorly that was done and how it could have been better. That's natural to have that insight later on. But yeah, did that in [inaudible 00:03:08] react native for the first couple years and then worked with a more senior developer to change the app, redevelop it into Flutter later on. Those were the early days. And on the business side, it was just myself reading a lot of blogs, watching a lot of YouTube videos, trying to do everything on my own, basically.

Olivier Destrebecq:
Mm-hmm. So you said you're not a technical person originally, but I heard you mention that you transitioned to Flutter, so I'm curious, is the app actually in Flutter now or do you use a different technology now?

Ania Wysocka:
Yes, it's in Flutter now.

Olivier Destrebecq:
Oh, cool. Raising money is such a celebrated thing in the startup industry today, and you went the self-funded route, despite offers from some investors from what I heard. Can you tell us what pushed you in that route?

Ania Wysocka:
Yeah. So this is something that I actually get asked a lot and I think it shows, again, what you were saying. It's such a celebrated thing that people are like, "Well, why wouldn't you take investment if you have the offer?" Which makes sense. But in my personal experience, I had worked in the industry before I started Rootd, so I got to work with a lot of startups who had raised capital and I got to hear them and hear their experiences and all the downsides of raising capital. I saw how, after raising capital, they weren't often doing what they started out doing, because then their main objective is to increase the value for investors as opposed to doing what they love doing.

Ania Wysocka:
So I saw these startups change from something that started with passion, to something that became work, and I personally really enjoy working on Rootd. I love the challenge of being bootstrapped. I love just the journey of figuring out how to do everything yourself when you don't have the funds to outsource things. I also love the idea that Rootd is paying for itself. We;'re growing revenue consistently and putting that all back in the business means that it's really funding itself. Yeah, I've been really enjoying that.

Ania Wysocka:
I also don't like having a boss with this. At the end of the day, any decision that is going to get made inevitably falls to me. Sometimes that's stressful, right? Because you don't have the support of others. You don't bounce ideas off other people. If I screw up, it's my fault. However, it's quite a freedom to not have a board, to not do things, so I think that, unless things change, for now, I'm really enjoying the bootstrap model.

Olivier Destrebecq:
Yeah. Yeah. I guess, if at some point, you want a board, it can really be strictly advisory board and not a board that will actually direct you and have a sounding board. So it's really nice to hear that you get to do what you want and drive it the way you want. One other thing, every time I hear you talk, is you're very open about the fact that you created Rootd for yourself initially, and also for others obviously, but it was a tool that you would use. What are the benefits of being a user of your own app?

Ania Wysocka:
I think the fact that you are a very natural user tester of your own product. I care about Rootd working very much, and especially in the early days, when I needed it, right? It really makes it feel like a very close project, something that you're very emotionally attached to. And maybe that's not always the best if you do have investors, you have to change your mindset a bit then, but with the way that I've been working on Rootd, it's been really helpful to love it. It's my baby. So yeah, I think that's a key part of the benefit of being a user of your own app.

Olivier Destrebecq:
Yeah. You definitely have a critical eye and you're a user, so you know what you're looking for. Nice.

Ania Wysocka:
Mm-hmm. I guess I could mention here that I wasn't always comfortable talking about it. When I first launched Rootd, panic attacks and anxiety really weren't talked about, and it felt a lot more alone when you're experiencing it. But then, obviously, with over a million users and just the world talking about mental health more and more, it's made me more comfortable sharing this story. At the beginning, when I would do a press release or something for Rootd, people would ask for my photo and I wouldn't even send them my photo. I was very much not willing to be as open as I am now.

Ania Wysocka:
But yeah, that's changed, and I also realize that people really like to learn about the person behind a company or story sometimes, and really it means that I'm reaching more people. When I'm being vulnerable and sharing my story, it means that more people can see Rootd. So yeah, just a bit of information there because it wasn't always easy to share that story.

Jeff Grand:
I'm actually curious, in the application itself and in the communication that you have with your users, does that transpire, that like, "I created this app"? Does it give it a different tone, do you think, to the app than if it was a larger company or somebody that's not a user of the app?

Ania Wysocka:
I fluctuate between the two actually. Sometimes I just say, "We," and I think people assume it's a much larger app or a bigger team and I think that has some benefits. Then, on the other hand, if a user's being really personal, if they're sharing something personal, then I'm happy to say like, "Hey, you're not alone. I struggle with this too." So it depends. I use both, depending on how I'm feeling because, at the end of the day, people don't need to know all the time who I am. It's just really more so in the marketing efforts and sharing the story. Whereas if a user has a customer service problem, they don't need to know who I am, right? So yeah. It depends. It depends who I'm talking to and when.

Olivier Destrebecq:
Yeah, yeah. Last time we talked, you mentioned that reviews are very important, especially getting positive reviews. Can you tell us why, and what you did to try to help get positive reviews for Rootd?

Ania Wysocka:
Yeah. So the, why, would be that reviews help with your ranking in the app store, and if you don't have funding like Rootd, you're not spending your time on advertising, then obviously you need to focus a lot on app store optimization and doing whatever you can to rank higher and reviews are really key to that. The app stores love to see five star reviews come in and that's just part of the algorithm that they use, so that is why.

Ania Wysocka:
Then in terms of what I did to try to help get positive reviews, anytime some review came in and it had to do with the tech of the app, let's say something didn't open for them or they're upset about something, I would make sure to respond and really, really encourage them to write to me by email, because you can't really have a dialogue through the reviews. But in asking them to write to me by email, I could often address their problem, fix it and then encourage them to update their review. So that actually took a lot of one star reviews...

Ania Wysocka:
People get quite impatient with apps. They want things to be free. They want it to work really well and really fast, so if any of those three things don't work, then they get really upset. However, once they realize they're talking to you and you're a human and it's a small team, then sometimes, I'm not going to say all the time, I wish it happened more, but sometimes people are willing to go back and say, "Hey, I wrote this review, but since then my experience has improved so much. It's actually a great app." That happens often where people are like, "I feel bad about leaving this review because it's actually an amazing app and it's helping me so much and the team is so nice." And that's what they write, and so it's really good to just get back to them, even if it takes time. Personally, that's what I think, and I do. Yeah.

Olivier Destrebecq:
Yeah, yeah. I was going to say it probably takes a ton of time and organization on your end because you have to keep track of the reviews and when you can actually get back to them with improvements.

Ania Wysocka:
Yeah. Definitely. If there's a bug, then we know about it really, really quick, and so we're already working on fixing it, but you're right. It's less about the content usually, and it's more about the fact if there's a bug. So it's easier for me to fix it right away, as opposed to, if it's a suggestion about content, that would be more complicated, but that's actually really where people are usually really happy with the content inside, as long as they don't experience any bugs.

Olivier Destrebecq:
Interesting.

Jeff Grand:
That's what happens when you have 1.8 million users, right?

Ania Wysocka:
Yeah. 1.7. Yes.

Jeff Grand:
1.7. By the time the podcast publish, it's going to be over 1.8, I'm sure.

Ania Wysocka:
Yes.

Jeff Grand:
I have a question because we were saying that you are self-funded but moving from a student developed app to where you are today needs money and also time, and you chose to implement subscriptions in your app, and we're going to discuss that later, I guess. First question I have on that topic is will there have been any other way to monetize Rootd?

Ania Wysocka:
I actually did the subscriptions from the very beginning, just when I pre-launched. The way that I organized that was all the free content is stuff that you really need to get started, but it really already helps you, so there's no need to subscribe right away. It's only if you're actually generally enjoying the app and getting so much from it, then you have access to more content you can use in the short term and long term, so that's a note on the subscriptions.

Ania Wysocka:
Then in terms of what I else I could have done, there's other options of, "Hey, I'm doing this for free. Do you want to buy me coffee?" That type of language and copy in the app could be another one. Having everything free and just asking for that. Another payment option could have been with advertising, but I think that would really take away from the experience of Rootd users. Those are about all I can think of at the moment, but I've always been a fan of the freemium model.

Jeff Grand:
So you chose to implement subscriptions in the app to generate revenue. What are the variation that you've tried around your paywall, because we're always told that the paywall is so important? I'm curious, what iteration did you take?

Ania Wysocka:
At first, I didn't have anything in the actual onboarding experience, it was more so as you went into Rootd and you started using and enjoying the tools, you'd subscribe. Then I learned to put it in the onboarding experience and it was actually really stressful for me, because I was really worried that I'd built up so much trust with my users. I was getting such great reviews. I was really worried that a paywall would not be positive. However, I ended up not having actually that many complaints. I think there will always be people who just expect everything to be free, and I'm sure your other guests and your podcasts have expressed something similar, because that's just something that we see almost on every app when we look at the reviews.

Ania Wysocka:
But yeah, introducing it into the onboarding experience was pretty huge. That immediately increased revenue, and then since then, implementing different changes as to where it is in the onboarding, like order of the screens, that has been another experience and experiment, so those are some of the variations. Also, introducing a free trial as opposed to just a paywall.

Jeff Grand:
Okay. If I remember correctly, in the app, you have a panic button feature. I'm curious, is that part of the free experience? Is that behind the subscription? How's that fall?

Ania Wysocka:
No, that's free. That's free on purpose. It's quite important for me. That's something that was really useful when I was experiencing panic attacks and anxiety, and it's one of the main features in the app. Often, people who experience panic attacks, they might be temporarily or permanently out of work, and are permanently in the sense that permanent for now, or they're students.

Ania Wysocka:
It's not always the ideal customer that's going to be a subscribing customer, so I want to make sure that they have all the content they need, even if they're not going to pay. I think that's the difference. If I had investors, I might have to change that model of it, but for now, I'm... That's why I made it. I couldn't afford a lot of stuff when I was struggling, so I want to make sure that it's there for people who are struggling as well, so that portion is free.

Jeff Grand:
We were speaking about the reviews and how important the reviews are for you and the amount of time that you spend responding to comments on the stores, et cetera. Did that change, and putting the paywall in the very first onboarding experience, had meaningful impact on the reviews?

Ania Wysocka:
Not a ton. Like I was saying, there's definitely some people that will comment on that because they don't really understand that it's just an option. Even though the language says, "This is an option. You can keep going without starting free trial." Some people, as soon as they see a price, they're just like, "Oh, that's it. I'm going to go leave a review. I can't believe I'm seeing a price." So I do have to then explain to them, and I think there's different user interface, user experience techniques you can do to explain to them, more clearly, that of course you can keep going and access the free content.

Ania Wysocka:
But sometimes those people will leave a bad review and then I encourage them to email me and then we have some back and forth and they'll go back and they'll say, "Okay, I'm changing my review because it turns out there actually is a lot of free content in the app."

Olivier Destrebecq:
Yeah. We see a lot of people trying to hide this close button, to put it as lightest gray possible on a white background. I guess that's not what you're doing at Rootd.

Ania Wysocka:
I mean, I do do best practices. But yeah, we try not to be unclear about it, but we do experiment with a number of best practices of different apps too. It's not to throw those apps, to make it sound like they're doing something bad, we hopefully are providing a great experience for our users in that way.

Jeff Grand:
You mentioned earlier that you did some exploitations on that paywall and getting double onboarding flow worked for Rootd. Is there some takeaways that you can share with us from those experimentations?

Ania Wysocka:
Yeah. Definitely the order of where the paywall is. Notice that the earlier it is, it's actually the more successful, and that's also why, when you said what other apps are doing, we have experimented with stuff like that, because it is... At the end of the day, if you do have that revenue, it does really help build out the app and get it to more people, and there's different just best practices basically that you use from different apps.

Ania Wysocka:
But for me, I guess the biggest thing was just putting it closer to the front really. That had the biggest impact. Yeah, I keep the page quite simple. I think that one thing I'll do moving forward is actually list more features on it. Like what is available for paying, what's not, because I read somewhere previously that you want to keep it so simple you don't even have to list all the features, but I want to experiment and see what happens when we do. But I haven't done that yet, so I'll have to tell you next time Jeff.

Jeff Grand:
Okay.

Olivier Destrebecq:
We'll call you back for another interview.

Ania Wysocka:
Cool.

Jeff Grand:
One of the great thing to happen to you is that you had stories published by Apple about you and Rootd. How did you match you do that, and also, what did that mean in the end for Rootd?

Ania Wysocka:
The way that I attempted to do it is through submitting story submissions and Apple allows anybody to do that. Any app can submit story submissions. You can share whether you're having the big update or whether there's any significant date, global date, that's related to your app. I did that a lot, and by a lot, I mean, I didn't hear back from them for the first year or two. It was a lot of submitting without hearing back and I just forced myself to keep doing it.

Ania Wysocka:
I think alongside that, the stats in the app speak for themselves, because they get to see on the back end, how you're doing, and same with Google Play. They see how many people are downloading, what reviews are they leaving, how's the app ranking, et cetera, so I think it was probably a combination. Rootd was just doing well, and then the app store editors decided to... They saw my story submission. They decided to reach out. So I can't say for sure, because I think it's more, the app stores know how that works. They don't actually share everything with us, but that was my experience.

Ania Wysocka:
Then in terms of the impact, it was so positive. I mean the users that we retained the most, find us through app store search, however, we had so many positive experiences with people through app store browse, and they were even leaving reviews like, "I didn't even know I needed this app until Apple showed it to me," or, "I didn't know I needed this app until Google play had featured it," and so it was yeah, a pretty special time. It felt really validating. And I, of course, tried to also show Apple and Google play that, "Hey, look at these reviews coming in as a result of the features." So yeah, it was really good in terms of downloads, and I'd say, it's more like a bump though, so keeping that in mind. It's a great strategy, but it is more of a bump. I think the most valuable part of it is if it helps you with your ranking.

Jeff Grand:
Did you see any difference between users coming from search and people coming from promotion on the app store?

Ania Wysocka:
Yeah, so definitely the search is still the most loyal and power user, but I really, really enjoyed interacting with, and seeing the impact from, the browse as well.

Jeff Grand:
Okay. And are you acquiring new users using Apple searches for example?

Ania Wysocka:
Yeah, a little bit. It's more, some keywords that maybe even sounds more symbolic, make sure that they're clicking on us. If they're already looking for Rootd, for example, because a lot of other apps will use Rootd as a keyword. It's funny to compete on your name, but that's mostly it.

Jeff Grand:
Yeah. The defensive approach. Yeah.

Ania Wysocka:
Yeah. That's mostly it, because you do have people every now and then writing in saying, "Hey, I was looking up your app, but I downloaded it and I can't access it," and then I realize, "Oh, that's not our app." So not a lot.

Olivier Destrebecq:
So what's the process once apple reached out to you and say, "Hey, we want to do a story about you and Rootd," what happens next?

Ania Wysocka:
You get a request for promotional artwork and that's about it. Everything else is at their discretion, they decide what type, they decide what date. It's not really for you to know really and, at any time, they can change their minds too. So, yeah. You just hope for the best really as the app developer.

Jeff Grand:
Yeah. And from my experience, I also saw that it's not a one shot thing. I mean it can sometimes spot on the store in different countries that you weren't asked about, so it's a surprise on every morning, maybe not. But from time to time, you see that your app is featured in this and this and this country, so it's a great loop to start to be in, because it's constant featuring as long as the app keeps being top of mind in users, and of course, sustains a great quality for users.

Ania Wysocka:
Totally. Yes. The other week, we were the number one app in Mexico for over seven days.

Jeff Grand:
Wow.

Ania Wysocka:
For health and fitness, sorry. I should explain. To me, that's the only category I look at, so it's number one.

Jeff Grand:
Yeah, but fitness is quite competitive too.

Ania Wysocka:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly, so that was really, really cool. Yeah, I got to learn a lot about working with Mexican users as well, so it was really neat.

Olivier Destrebecq:
I want to get a little bit back to the bootstrap aspect of Rootd because you're the first bootstrap founder that we interview on the podcast. So when you run into other founders that want to bootstrap their own company, do you have any advice you give them? What would you like to tell them?

Ania Wysocka:
I think that just to be ready for a lot of scrutiny#. I think times are changing, but especially when I'm starting, a bit less so now, but still sometimes, I'll get feedback like, "Oh, it's not serious until you've raised money," or "You're losing on such a big opportunity," and I think you just have to really think back. "Okay, why did I start this? Why am I doing this?" And hopefully, that will help you get over some of the negative more criticism.

Ania Wysocka:
It was really hard for me sometimes because, at the beginning I was like, "Oh, am I doing the right thing?" Right? Like, "I don't know, but this is how I feel. This is what I think I need to do, and I feel quite strongly, especially now I don't want to work with that person," so that helped. But it is really tough when people that you look up to are saying that you're doing something wrong, so you really have to go back and think, "Okay, why do I believe in this, and why do I believe in myself to do this?" Yeah, that would be my main tip.

Ania Wysocka:
The other thing is that just have patience because the rhetoric around bootstrapping a company is changing. I remember back in the day, it was almost not talked about at conferences. Now more people are talking about it at conferences. We're seeing that you can actually get a lot of great results bootstrapping. There's some amazing companies out there that have bootstrapped. So yeah, just having patience knowing that just because it's not time yet that popular culture is talking about it, doesn't mean you can't do it, and that it won't happen eventually. I think it'll be more and more accepted or celebrated later on.

Jeff Grand:
Yeah, definitely.

Olivier Destrebecq:
One of the quotes, I don't remember who said it, but that person essentially said, "Raising money is like putting gas in your car. You never make a party when you stop in the gas station. You just close the door and keep on going. That's really what it should be." So it was very interesting to hear your perspective on bootstrapping too.

Jeff Grand:
One question we love to ask people to interview, especially when they work here on an app is what's happening next for Rootd? What's the next big effort, and potentially, why are you going that direction?

Ania Wysocka:
So one thing that is happening really soon now, so before the end of this quarter in June, is we're adding in a bunch of new visualizations and sleep visualizations and more gamification into the journal and the lessons tool. What that does is it makes it a bit more accessible for users, so one of the options is, for example, adding audio in the text. That's something I'm really excited about, because not everybody learns the same way as others do through reading.

Ania Wysocka:
I mentioned that I originally created the app more so for myself. I personally get more information when I read than when I watch a video, but not everybody's like that, so just working on making a bit more inclusive. Yeah, and the, why, behind that is, probably because of the awesome user reviews that come in. People will leave a great review and they'll say, "This would make it even better," and so I do take that stuff seriously. I take users comments seriously. We can't do everything that a user wants, but if it makes sense, if it aligns with the overall mission, then it's something I consider. Yeah, and I like to implement that.

Ania Wysocka:
Then on the marketing side, or the business side, a lot more experimenting with onboarding that I mentioned. I'm really excited to do more experiments basically.

Jeff Grand:
Nice. Nice, nice. It's great to hear. I mean, it really sounds, talking to you, that there's a great mission behind the app that you truly believe in, which gives you the North Star of where to go, which was potentially declining investment, and choosing which feature you want to do and all that kind of stuff, so it's really great to hear that.

Ania Wysocka:
Awesome. Thank you.

Jeff Grand:
You're welcome. Those were all the questions we had for you. If people want to learn more about Rootd, or potentially about you, where can they go?

Ania Wysocka:
On social media, all of our handles are @rootd_app. Then personally I'm @aniamargaret on Twitter, and you can send us an email at team@rootd.io, and that's Rootd with no E.

Olivier Destrebecq:
Awesome. Well thank you again, Ania, those were some great answers that you gave us and lots of value for our listeners.

Ania Wysocka:
Awesome. Thank you so much again for having me. Cheers.

Jeff Grand:
Thank you Ania. Bye-bye.

Ania Wysocka:
Have a great day. Bye.

Olivier Destrebecq:
On behalf of the Purchasely team, thank you for listening to the Subscription League podcast. If you've enjoyed what you heard, leave us a five star review on iTunes or other OGIO platform. To find out more about Purchasely, and how we can improve your subscription business, visit purchasely.com. Please hit subscribe in your podcast player and don't miss any future episodes. You can also listen to previous episodes at subscriptionleague.com. See you soon.